I first met Madison Young during one of her infamous workshops – Deep Throat and The Art of Oral Sex. This talented and inspirational lady had me deep-throating an engorged banana in no time! Teacher’s pet that I am, I sat in the front row and nodded along to everything she said. After class, I nervously sidled up to her and squealed out “Hello Madison I am the head of a group of professional submissives based in NYC, and I’d love if you could do an interview with us because we love you so much!” And lo and behold, the gracious Madison Young is now here to have a conversation about BDSM, her lifestyle, her new book and…the art of submission!
Hi Madison! First of all, I want to say a huge “thank you” for joining us here at The Art of Submission! I’m sorry about nervously babbling away to you after that Deep Throat workshop. Looking back, I was star struck and heroine struck, and that usually doesn’t come out well, awkward being that I am! How do you interact with people like me who only know you as venerable Madison Young?
It always means a lot to me to meet people who appreciate the work that I’m doing and to know that my work has impacted or empowered their life in a significant way. It’s one of the key reasons that I create space for individual expression of self and advocate for the celebration of our most authentic selves. I find myself in wonderful, connected, passionate conversations often with folks who I’ve just met and that are fans of my work. I love to speak about sex and sexuality, sexual empowerment, feminism, pornography, art and social change so when I find folks that resonate with those same topics and appreciate the contributions I’m making to those fields, I’m always grateful. I’m not always awesome at remembering names but I remember the conversations, the emotions, the events.
Also, the simplest kind gestures when you are on tour mean so much. While I was in NYC this past trip, a fan came to a performance art event that I was presenting at and brought me four vegan cupcakes from my favorite bakery in New York. I had just had a really horrible time the day before with an allergic reaction to antibiotics that involved hives, vomiting and fainting. It was pretty horrible. And it took everything in me to make it to the performance art gig the next day, and it just meant so much to have a fan bring me cupcakes. Nothing could have been better. I write about a similar instance in my book where a fan brought me cupcakes in Denver. The fan I write about in the book had no idea that my whole world was turned topsy-turvy only 24 hours prior to that appearance when I found out I was pregnant. But the show must go on, and when individuals let you know that the work that you are doing really has made a difference in their lives, it means so much. It fuels you to keep going.
How do you feel being a queer, poly, kink idol to people who are still discovering themselves in these areas?
Sometimes it’s a bit intense. I try to be the hero that I need to be and at the same time listen to my body, my desires, my needs and give room for the exploration of an ever evolving self. That may or may not fit into other’s expectations of me. The best I can do is be completely transparent and let folks know that we are all incredibly human, and that our beauty is found in that authentic humanness, and that our heroism exists in embracing our truth and persevering forward. I hope I inspire individuals to discover their truth and for them to live that truth fully.
Is Madison Young different from Tina Butcher (Madison’s legal name)? How much Tina is in Madison, or are they one and the same?
Tina is like a childhood nickname. Only my mother calls me Tina. Everyone from my partner, my dentist, my best friends, my doctor, and barista all call me Madison. Madison is who I grew into, my adult self, an impassioned artist, activist, writer and mother. I believe that we are all given a name at birth, and then we develop and find name/s in our lives that fit who we grow into. All of those name/s are authentic and real to the you that you are.
These days, besides being a submissive, you are a Partner, a Mother, a Little girl, a Feminist, an Advocate, an Artist, a Writer, a Director…whew…the list goes on! How do you balance all this into a healthy lifestyle?
A lot of time management, a team of amazing volunteers, interns, and assistants. I’ve been balancing all of these roles (except motherhood) for over a decade so I’ve gotten pretty good at it. Motherhood is the really tricky role. The most challenging and most rewarding experience of my life. Being a parent and having such a strong loving partnership with my love really provides a strong solid footing for my career. I’ve cut down dramatically on my work hours. I engage in self care – yoga, meditation, massage – and I still manage to be highly productive. Before motherhood my life outside of my career was void much in the way of personal non-consumable intimacy. But now my personal life is overflowing with love, gratitude, happiness – as I tell my child – my heart dances.
Speaking from personal experience, kink is a deep-seated passion of mine, and it never strays far from my mind, but once in a while I find myself burned out from all this passion. Do you ever get tired of kink because you are surrounded by it 24/7?
Well these days I’m not really surrounded by it 24/7, and I’m happy that I’m not. I have and still do spend a lot of time working in places that have kinky accoutrements everywhere – like the armory. But I don’t really get excited by dungeons or that kind of thing. I get excited by who I’m with, not the toy store I’m in. I get excited to connect with my lover whether it is over pizza and a movie, or bound with rope and suspended from the ceiling as I receive lashings from his leather belt and a nice hard fuck. Kink is great. So is cuddling. I feel like I have a pretty great balance.
Your new book “Daddy: A Memoir” came out last year. In it, you describe your queer and kink coming of age story and relationship journey with your partner and fellow kink performer James Mogul. You have a Daddy/little girl relationship with him. Can you describe that relationship for people who haven’t read your book (although they certainly will now – right, readers?)
The Daddy/little relationship are roles that exist within the sexual psyche of my partner and I. It’s a dominant/submissive dynamic in which my partner and I have constructed mutually based on our desires. As a woman who is often in positions of great control in my non-sex life – running both a production company and non-profit arts org – it is of great comfort to construct a space with my partner in which I can surrender control, relinquish my outside world life and be totally present in connection and service to one person. As I step into my role as a “little” I experience the world of simple pleasures – earning gold stars, coloring, dress shopping with Daddy. I look to Daddy as an elder, a mentor, a guide, someone I love and admire who is strong (in mind, body and spirit) – who can hold me in my most vulnerable states of being – there is an enormous depth of trust and intimacy there. There may or may not be elements of bondage, sex, and SM involved in any of these Daddy/little scenes. Our Daddy/little dynamic is rooted in psychological play not the physical. There are other psychological roles I may take on within our relationship, all which are fulfilling in different ways – pain slut/masochist, rope slut, submissive, spaniel, kinky lover.
Has your Daddy/little girl, D/s relationships evolved over the years of being together?
For years, we have had a working D/s agreement which we evaluate and discuss and make changes to on a bi-monthly basis. This agreement works as a communication tool for us to evaluate what is still hot for us, what we want to explore, interests, limits, boundaries and desires. It’s very helpful in keeping our kinky play fresh and rejuvenated.
What do you say to people who don’t understand this type of relationship and play?
I think there is a lack of information and education around sexuality and alternative relationship dynamics in general, and we have a tendency to pathologize and fear what we don’t understand. There are many ways to express our sexuality and our desires in healthy consenting ways. I think if people strip away the labels and names that hold an emotional charge for them and look at individuals as just that – people – individuals – who are connecting and gifting one another with positive intention, energy and sensation that comes from a place of love and radiance and received with acceptance, gratitude and a celebration of a trusted connection – I think then the implements, the titles, the fact that someone might not quite understand the touch of a flogger rather than a hand or calling out the name “Daddy” or “Sir” instead of “lover” – well those details and bits and pieces that folks don’t understand become less important.
My desire for my Daddy is not a reflection of my relationship with my biological father. I view my Daddy as a mentor, a community elder, an individual that I look up to and respect – I do not envision him as a biological blood relation to me. That would be incestual role play and there is nothing “wrong” with that either. Exploring different aspects of our psychological make up is perfectly natural – unfortunately it’s often shamed in unkind ways to have desires or express desires that deviate from the norm. There are some people that will simply have such embedded fear and shame around certain topics that they are too enflamed to have a non-inflamatory conversation about certain topics – such as BDSM.
I think we’ve all heard many strong words on these topics (I won’t say “ugly words” because I don’t believe words are ugly, just sometimes the intentions behind them). For example, I’ve participated in discussions about this topic on adult forums. Here are some excerpts from participants:
“I’m not one to judge, but this one creeps me out. I can only hope that you aren’t a father.”
“…You are sick in the head…”
“As a parent, myself, I feel the instinct will always be to protect the young, fantasy or not. Arsonists and murderers start small and work their way up…it would be interesting to see what research says about the parent/child fetish and whether or not it will likely lead up to a “real” experience.”
“It’s absolutely NOT normal to want to have sex with your child, not even in a fantasy. He’s talking himself into it being ok, and finding it an arousing experience. If he has a child, it could lead to a real problem.”
What do you say in the face of so much negativity and such an apparent uphill battle? Can you shed some much-needed light on this topic?
Sometimes you have to just sit and listen and give space for the expression of their thoughts and concerns. Then you can repeat back to them what you are hearing. “I see that you have a lot of strong feelings about Daddy/little relationships. I’m happy to share with you some information about what my experience has been like in a Daddy/little relationship” Often just giving space for the expression of their thoughts and concerns can create space for some of the swelling of their emotions to go down and might leave room for some education and conversation around the subject. My goal is not to convert folks to expressing their sexuality in the same way in which I do or even to be a cheerleader for the expression of my sexuality – it’s to create space for everyone to feel free to express their truest self and to explore their own personal sexual selves in a way that is true and natural for them.
What about people who just don’t understand or accept…or don’t want to understand or accept? Does that frustrate you?
It can be frustrating. But I don’t rely on other’s validation or understanding of the way I choose to express myself. What matters to me is that my partner and I understand and support one another and that we feel connected in the way we choose to express ourselves sexually (and non-sexually) with one another.
Now the bright side of the coin…at the end of this conversation (before moderators shut it down for being too inflammatory), opinion seemed to be split 50/50. How much power do you think your book has to change opinions out there? Is that what you are looking to do?
The goal of my book isn’t to change opinions of anyone – although perhaps it will – but it’s to offer an expression of myself through the artistic medium of the written word in hopes that it will resonate with others. That my truth, my perseverance, my continued exploration of self, my own inner “Daddy” will inspire others to uncover new parts of themselves, to continue the journey, the evolution, the celebration of our own unique selves, our own brilliant and beautiful differences and to live life in to its fullest and most present extent.
Getting into the book, your father left your mother for a prostitute. I was surprised that you never felt resentment towards sex workers and indeed ended up one yourself. It seemed to me that you embraced the “whore” role as someone who wields power, sexual and otherwise. Or maybe that’s because I am reflecting themes from my own story onto yours. Can you comment on that?
I never felt resentment toward sex workers. Any anxiety that I had around sex workers was tied up in my fear and familial suppression of conversations around sex, pleasure, relationships, and body. As I grew older and went on to study sex positive feminist writings I came to recognize the power of the words, “slut” and “whore”. They were powerful, beautiful and sacred words. I saw “slut” and “whore” as empowered enlightened healers able to manifest sexual pleasure and confidence within themselves and then channel and share that energy with those that the “whore” dubbed as worthy of their radiant energy. Erotic alchemists. I didn’t blame my father for seeking pleasure or a life outside of our family. I missed having him as a part of our daily life, but he followed his heart and chose to be out in a very conservative environment about his relationship with a sex worker. I think that is brave. I’ve always admired my father’s ability to follow his heart. I’ve always followed mine.
On the topic of “Daddy issues” – In some ways, you seem to be reinforcing the negative stereotype that broken homes, childhood abandonment, trauma and parental issues are catalysts for interest in power exchange and BDSM. How would you argue if someone holds your story as an example of BDSM being acted out due to earlier trauma?
That’s definitely not my intention. I actually have a wonderful relationship with my father and my mom. I talk with my mother several times a week. My dad and I were very close growing up. It was very difficult for him when I left for California. He has his hands full with a toddler of his own but we are still very close. Divorce rates in 1984 were around 35%. And I don’t feel like being a part of a family that experienced divorce makes my family “broken” or has induced any type of trauma. I feel like the inherent sex shaming/body shaming/ lack of education and fear around pleasure and bodies was more traumatic. In living life fully we will experience traumatic and difficult moments. We persevere and move forward. My interest in kink and BDSM is not a result of trauma. Our childhood is one element that shapes who we are. I find comfort in objects that brought me comfort and pleasure as a child. For example rope, leather, high heels, as I honor and find beauty in these objects as an adult my senses pull up positive stored and filed away emotions that relate to how I felt around these objects as a child. That informs the experience.
I think your story is beautiful – raw and painful at times, but very beautiful. And as we know, pain can be cathartic, spiritual and transcendental. What’s one thing you would like readers to keep in mind while reading your book and joining you on this journey?
I wrote a preface to the book called “With your Consent”. I want folks to keep consent in mind. That this is an experience that we are sharing together. Neither of us are passive, but active and present. Both of us will experience emotions as we journey together, sometimes it may feel intense. I want for folks to take their time, breathe, experience the way their body responds as your reading the book, breathe with the turning of the pages, care for yourself in the reading of this memoir and don’t be afraid to cry, to feel, to discover something new (about the world or yourself) or to discover discomfort, and edges, limits that you didn’t know that you had. One reader tweeted the other day that “Finished @madisonyoung’s beautiful memoir DADDY. Thanks for suggesting some aftercare– Scented bubblebath and chocolate chip cookies, yes!” It made me so happy to know that a reader was engaging in self care, self awareness of their experience in reading the book and that I’m inspiring the making and eating of more chocolate chip cookies 🙂
In the book “Off the Set: Porn Stars and Their Partners” by Paulie & Pauline, you mention that part of your activist ethics is to “participate in honest sexual experiences”. That really stuck on me since we here at AOS believe in being as real and genuine as we can be in the context of professional work. Do you find that a challenge as an erotic performer? How do you reconcile the desires of your audience or client with your own desires?
My authentic sexual expression always comes first in the context of my work. I’m not comfortable performing someone else’s idea of what they think my expression of sexual desire should look like. Sometimes my audience will appreciate my authentic expression of self, sometimes they won’t – as an artist and an activist I create space for that authentic expression of self. I can’t create a book or art or an erotic film attempting to guess at what someone else is going to like.
Was that always important to you, or did you grow into that philosophy over time?
Documenting my authentic expression of sexual self was always essential in my work. Not only that but creating space for authentic expression of self. That is the reason I created Femina Potens – to give artists a space for authentic expression of self – specifically marginalized feminist and queer artists. That key value and mission has fueled all of my work – from providing educational experiences around sexuality, to erotic film making, writing, the creation of visual and performative art works.
At what point did you metamorphosize into advocate, activist and feminist?
I don’t remember a time in which I didn’t identify as a feminist or an activist or advocate. I’ve always been an organizer and started a file for the creation of Femina Potens back when I was still in junior high. At 16, I was part of ROAR (Reperetoire of Artistic Revolution), and in college was an active participant in anarchist and feminist movements, protests, demonstration and the creation of art for social change. Feminist Pornography is simply an extension of my art and politics, it’s a powerful medium in which great social and political change is possible in the way we relate to our bodies, sex, and relationships.
Here at AOS, we strive to provide a safe and fun space for beginner-to-advanced pervs and kinksters to learn about BDSM and explore their fantasies! The reason we first came into being is because we noticed an empty space, the need for a home base for pro subs to advertise, communicate, share ideas and plug in for support. What do you think of the amorphous realm of professional submissives? Why do you suppose there are so many pro Dommes but very few pro subs by comparison? Safety? Taboo?
I’m not quite sure. That is a great question though. I don’t have a great deal of experience with the ProDomme/ProSub world. I know a fair number of pro-switches that do both. I feel like I would need to do more research into this realm to accurately comment.
Well that’s something we here at AOS are looking to change! Think of us as public relations for pro subs and switches!
Back to our audience. What advice do you have for readers who are afraid to bring up and share BDSM with their partners, whether they are new or life partners? What communication skills do you recommend?
A few ways to bring up your desire to explore BDSM would be attending a workshop, going shopping at a sex positive sex toy store (like Good Vibrations or Babeland), reading erotica that has kinky undertones, attending CineKink or another erotic film festival, watching feminist porn together that features BDSM. When you engage in any of these activities, it creates space for conversation around the topic that is already being addressed within the art, the film, the writing, the sex toy, etc. Follow that conversation. See where it leads. Give space for your partner to talk about and express their desires. Also, intimacy and relationship coaching can be incredibly helpful in this negotiation and communication process. That is one of the many things that I do. I’m a certified sex educator and provide intimacy and relationship coaching both via Skype and in person in Berkeley, CA. You can find out more about my coaching at yourspaceforlovecoaching.wordpress.com.
What about for budding kinksters looking to get into the social scene? How do you recommend they go about it, learn and make friends? It can be a scary place when navigating it alone!
I recommend finding a nonprofit community organization that focuses on alt sexuality expression or specifically a BDSM/kink organization and volunteer. Get to know the community by serving it. It’s the best way to learn about the inner workings of your community and meet people while serving the community. I also recommend finding a local munch. A munch is when folks gather for dinner or coffee who are all kinksters of one kind or another, and you might talk about kinky stuff or just work, but it’s a place to meet folks, be yourself, and meet folks outside of the dungeon. Fetlife is a wonderful place to find out about munches and social events happening on a global level in the kink world. But avoid one on one encounters or jumping into anything too soon. Educate yourself as a submissive and dominant. Attend every workshop that you can whether it’s a topic that you’re really into or not.
Ok, you are a busy lady so we’ve taken up enough of your time! Thank you so much for sharing yourself with us. I know that can be hard at times, especially with so much on your plate, so we really appreciate your generosity of spirit. Let’s wrap up with some aftercare for Madison!
So what makes you feel good these days?
I enjoy bike rides to the beach with my family, yoga, sexy rope filled date nights with Daddy, and the occasional day to myself where I can spend all day in a favorite cafe writing, take time to daydream (or sleep in), spend hours at a favorite bookstore getting lost in a book, or splash in a nice big juicy puddle after it rains.
Readers, please take a moment to wish all the best for Madison and thank her for inspiring us…for being the strong, intelligent, courageous, sexy-of-mind-and-body woman that she is! Madison, please know that you have a wee group of supporters and friends here at AOS, and if you ever need anything, we’d be happy to share our kink love. We wish you the very best of luck, love and lust!
To learn more about Madison Young, check out her sites!
Buy “Daddy: The Memoir” here and support Madison Young and The Art of Submission!